{"id":17,"date":"2004-05-09T22:49:01","date_gmt":"2004-05-10T04:49:01","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/?p=17"},"modified":"2004-05-09T22:56:18","modified_gmt":"2004-05-10T04:56:18","slug":"interview","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/2004\/05\/09\/interview\/","title":{"rendered":"Piece of Mind"},"content":{"rendered":"

Awesome! I just found once-lost transcription of an interview I did with musician Carol Morgan<\/a> for a project I did a couple years ago- the topic, Jazz History and it’s influence or something along those lines. She is a wealth of knowledge.
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Sarah M. Williams interviewing Carol Morgan
\nSaturday March 30th, 2002
\nUniversity of Houston- Downtown<\/p>\n

SW:\t For the sake of the interview, would you please state your occupation as well as any credentials you might have.<\/p>\n

CM:\tOkay, well, my name is Carol Morgan, and I am\u2026 I like to be though of mostly as a jazz trumpet player, but I am also an educator. I teach at San Jacinto College, its north and central campus- trumpet and jazz improv. I studied classical music and jazz in college at the University of Texas and later at Juilliard.<\/p>\n

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SW:\tFor starters, what attracted you to jazz in the first place?<\/p>\n

CM:\tWell, I’d always kind of listen to, uh\u2026 how my family was, we’d always listen to different music than what was necessarily popular- kind of my dad’s influence I think; and I guess in the ’70s it was a category of music we listened to- kind of “instrumental” it was called. I don’t even know if they have that anymore. But it was kind of like Henry Mancini movie music or, you know, various kind of light, kind of, uh\u2026 but not rock, so much. But anyway, we listened to a lot of classical music so it opened me up to listening to a different kind of music and that was key, I think, in when I first, I guess, really started paying attention to jazz was about my senior year in high school when I went to a national music camp in Interlochen, Michigan. And well, my dad, who was gracious enough to pay the expensive fare to get there said, “Hey, why don’t you take this jazz class.” So I was like “okay”. And it was fascinating. I loved, uh\u2026 particularly on Fridays we had this jazz history day and he would tell stories of all the great jazz players\u2026 I was fascinated by it immediately, and it was\u2026 you know, it was really fun to play. I had played piano, I had been somewhat interested in ragtime music before that, so it was kind of like, right out of that, it was like, even better to me- I wasn’t limited to playing on piano, I could play my trumpet, which I enjoyed playing more, so\u2026 that was kind of cool.<\/p>\n

SW:\tSo what made you decide that that was what you wanted to do?<\/p>\n

CM:\tWell, um, it took me a long time to figure that out, actually. I knew I wanted to play trumpet- and I can\u2019t explain that other than I just always thought that was what I was going to do; that I don\u2019t even remember making a conscious decision, it was just like, I can\u2019t do anything else, really. So even by the time I was deciding on graduate school I was working on classical music and jazz, so I, uh, auditioned for North Texas University- a premiere jazz school- and at Juilliard in New York- which was a premiere classical school. And I thought, well, you know we\u2019ll see what happens; but I hadn\u2019t made a decision as to which I really wanted to pursue. And then I got into Juilliard and was so excited about the prospect of going to New York and all, that I went and I just pretty much decided to be a classical trumpet player at that point and, uh, and I was miserable. I was playing everything on C trumpet- <\/p>\n

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a special instrument that usually gets played in the orchestra mostly. And a lot of it I think was kind of the personalities of the people that were around me that were driven to be classical musicians- I was really not very much like them. And I think the more creative and loose environment of improvisation was a whole lot more geared, uh\u2026 it\u2019s kind of odd, I think, talking to some people, they’ll say, \u201coh my gosh, you have to spontaneously create music, isn’t that a lot more stressful?\u201d Well, actually, to me, it\u2019s much more relaxing than trying to look an intense symphony- you know, Schurtenberger, Mahler, or something- and try to exactly nail everything in the middle. And that\u2019s like, that\u2019s stressful to me; and the people that that sort of music appealed to were different than I was, and I saw that, uh, that kind of chasm between what I thought I wanted to do and what was more natural. And, uh, and though I felt very behind, at that point, in my jazz studies, when I graduated from Juilliard, I kind of uh\u2026 I took a year in New York and it was like\u2026 I guess it\u2019s kind of a shock when you graduate from college- and it\u2019s like, \u201coh, now what do I do\u201d- especially with a music degree which does not totally send you to your next job right away. Um, and it was the summer after I graduated, and just one day I got the idea and decision that I’m just going to be a jazz trumpet player. And it was like such a weird, you know\u2026 it seems like kind of a silly thing to say to yourself, but all of a sudden it was like, that\u2019s really what I want to do. And I started really focusing on studying different players and really kind of honing my craft a bit. But, it was really after I got my masters that I kind of determined that that\u2019s really what I wanted to pursue and where I wanted to go\u2026 Haha, I’m kind of a slow learner.<\/p>\n

SW:\tIs there anything in particular you try to do or say with your music?<\/p>\n

CM:\tHmm\u2026 it\u2019s kind of uh\u2026 that\u2019s a tough question, because it\u2019s kind of like there\u2019s a lot of unconscious desires that come through in people\u2019s playing. And its like, if a knowledgeable listener is paying attention to the music, it\u2019s kind of like you\u2019re telling them your dreams- they\u2019re Sigmund Freud and you\u2019re in trouble. You know, it\u2019s like, uh, you can show things like insecurity a great deal in your playing- things like that. And I think the greatest thing I am trying to convey- still as a student of the music, but yet making a living doing it- is honesty and, umm, reality, and to me that manifests in working diligently to understand harmonies and chords and then relying more on intuition of what I hear than what my brain tells me, \u201coh, ____ is a good idea to play\u201d, but really kind of, there is a letting go, and an honesty of \u201cdon\u2019t be afraid, this really is who I am\u201d. Aside from all these things telling you like \u201cI can\u2019t do this, I shouldn\u2019t try this\u201d. And, you know, letting it just, kind of, basically speak about truth and then kind of go from there what kind of mood I’m in\u2026 that sort of thing. <\/p>\n

SW:\tWho are your inspirations? How have they inspired you? And how have you been influenced by their style to create your own personal voice?<\/p>\n

CM:\tM-hmm\u2026 umm\u2026 well, there\u2019s kind of a distinct point when I recall really becoming aware of listening to music. I had grown up with music all my life\u2026and, <\/p>\n

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uhh\u2026 we talked about this a little bit last week\u2026 it kind of, first of all, when you listen to music, particularly as a musician, it kind of goes through your ego, you know, and there\u2019s a lot of factors that detract from actually the listening experience- and that\u2019s, oh, like, \u201cI want to be able to do that\u201d, \u201cooh if I can do that I can do this\u201d and \u201chow does he do that\u201d and all these things that are\u2026 instead of just sitting down and enjoying a musical experience. And there\u2019s also judgments, you know, like, uh, \u201coh that\u2019s not very good\u201d or \u201cwhy, I don\u2019t think this is very good music\u201d or \u201cthis is much better music\u201d, and judgments that get made like, \u201cthis is a certain kind of music\u201d or \u201cI know this about this music\u201d, but it\u2019s really hard to sit down and listen and I think my first listening experience was probably in about \u201992 when I sat down with a great trumpet kind of guru who was then at the University of Illinois, Ray Sasaki. And I watched him listen to something, and it was like, \u201cwow he\u2019s getting a lot more out of this than I am\u201d. And, uh, it was like he kind of showed me how to listen to music. In a strange way, I watched and learned how to listen. And it was a wonderful experience, because I had been missing out on a whole lot of things. Now, granted I listened to music to a certain extent, but this was the first time I really identified with really listening in a kind of a new way that kind of totally changed\u2026 and now I listen even more intensely and get more out of it, but, that was the kind of the breakthrough moment as far as listening. So, that album that kind of did that, was an album by the vocalist Carmen McCrae, and it\u2019s called, um, American Songbook\u2026 Great American Songbook. And it\u2019s an excellent album- he had it on album. And it\u2019s a double album, and you get to hear her talk and stuff\u2026 And it was really good because, because of, you know, it was able to draw me in very easily because she\u2019s a singer, and so you are already connecting on one level with her language- English. And then that kind of draws you more into the musical language. I think one of the difficulties with listening to jazz a lot of times is maybe it\u2019s not necessarily a vocal, and you don\u2019t have that immediate\u2026 like, at least you can listen to the words and pick up on\u2026 But, um, Carmen kind of helped me there- get locked into jazz sounds through her vocals and how she treated the words and stuff. Um, but um, really, before that of course, I\u2019d already gone through five years of college, and I was quite versed in all the bebop players and had recordings of them all. You know, if I heard it, I could identify it and that sort of thing. So, they were kind of peripherally influential- in that, it wasn\u2019t a real conscious assuming of a particular style, but that\u2019s just one thing about music, and you play, and you just hear it, you starting imitating some of the things you hear even though you are not aware of it. So there was kind of peripheral influence from all the players you study about in school. But I would say after the point I really began listening, probably the next most influential after Carmen was Chet Baker. And I really got into listening to Chet Baker because I kind of went through a phase of wanting to learn more about playing music by ear- I had always been kind of taught that, you know, that wasn\u2019t necessarily a good approach to learning music; especially with my piano teacher, it was always like, \u201cno no no no\u201d. And, uh, I realized that it was a completely legitimate conception and, uh, I kind of found a way to learn music and a way to perform music through the eyes of Chet Baker, who was a great vocalist- once again drawn in by his vocals- and a great trumpet player, who hardly read music at all and yet was one of the biggest known jazz trumpet stars, ever. So, I <\/p>\n

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started listening to him and kind of got into that idea of playing by ear and I started playing along a lot with records. So I think I developed a lot of\u2026 kind of the way I\u2026 when I am focused on just listening to how I am playing, while it is going on, I think it shows a lot of Chet Baker influence in the kind of timing of things. There\u2019s kind of similar spacing\u2026 and, uh\u2026 and that\u2019s just not assuming. I know, after I had been playing along with Chet Baker records for a couple years, I went and did a\u2026 I was playing on a CD in Los Angeles for Seabreeze records- a big band album- and there were some players that hadn\u2019t heard me in several years. And although I was playing music that was very unlike Chet Baker, I got through with the solo, and the guy who was leading the session said \u201cReminds me a lot of Chet Baker, you know, not harmonically but\u2026\u201d and I was like \u201cexcellent, that\u2019s good\u201d. So Chet Baker was a big influence. And then, in more recent years, I\u2019ve kind of gotten into Freddie Hubbard, and I\u2019ve always liked Louis Armstrong, even from before I played trumpet, you know, that sort of sound I liked, so he\u2019s always been kind of motivational. Another player that I really enjoy that\u2019s a little bit obscure is uh\u2026 oh, I can\u2019t remember his name, but I can see his picture, uh\u2026 well he\u2019s a New York cornet player that\u2019s kind of an old school player. And he does things like, uh, shake on notes and stuff like that that\u2019s really kind of out of style, but yet, I always kind of thought it was cool and I find myself doing it in more modern harmonic versions. But doing those kinds of shakes and everything\u2026 that was kind of surprising\u2026 I played for Jim Rotundi, who\u2019s a New York trumpet player, like last summer, and he noticed that, he was like, \u201cthat\u2019s kind of interesting, you know maybe I\u2019ll try that.\u201d And uh\u2026 I’m still at a loss to think of the guy\u2019s name\u2026 Oh, Warren Varshay (SP?). And then, checking out tenor players I think have been, recently, more influential than trumpet players. And especially like Wayne Shorter and John Coltrane. But you know, I\u2019d like to think they are influential, but they are really pretty over my head and they\u2019re people I’m trying to study. And then, kind of modern trumpet players that I enjoy- Tom Harol, Tim Hagans, Dave Douglas- but see, I\u2019ve left out an important figure, and that\u2019s Miles Davis, and he kind of like goes through the whole thing. My roommate and I were living in New York; we had moved together in Manhattan for about five years, and we were kind of whacked, as most people in New York are. We would do this, uh\u2026 well, it was actually\u2026 I went to Juilliard\u2026 Miles Davis was a Juilliard student himself in the\u2026 I would guess early \u201850s, probably like late \u201840s. So he set up a scholarship fund, when he became very successful, at Juilliard; and I actually went to Juilliard on one of his scholarships, and I thought that was kind of cool. The first semester I was there was when he died- it was in the fall of \u201991, and he died around the age of, oh, 60, early 60s. It was kind of, uh, it was really strange in New York- he was a huge figure there, you know, even to just normal people who didn\u2019t listen to the music. A radio station there, an FM jazz station, they played Miles Davis recordings for like, I want to say, sixty four straight hours. That\u2019s all they played- Miles Davis. And there was enough- he recorded that much that there was that many hours of his music that they didn\u2019t have to repeat anything. Miles is the, to me, the beautiful thing about Miles is his innovation. You know, it was not just that you could listen to<\/p>\n

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him play and it just kind of take to you a different place all together than where you were sitting, but he, uh\u2026of all time, the greatest innovator; because not only did he make one innovation, he like continued throughout his life to be on the cutting edge, the avant-garde of jazz. It makes me think about\u2026 and maybe this is slightly off the subject, but\u2026is that okay? There\u2019s kind of an interesting thought about Miles\u2019 innovations. He was very, uh\u2026 well, he played trumpet. Trumpet is not the easiest instrument to play jazz on, and that has to do with kind of a visual effect. The trumpet, you know, has three valves, and it\u2019s not really idiomatic with how a scale looks. As opposed to a piano, you can look at the scale, it\u2019s laid out in front of you- you can see it. On the trumpet, you got these really kind of random fingerings that really have no relation to, say, a major scale, or a chromatic scale, or anything like that- they\u2019re just different. They\u2019re designed mechanically to make different lengths of pipe and combinations and things like that that will make half steps and stuff like that, which, you know, you don\u2019t play them 1-2-3, 1-2-3. You know, there\u2019s not an order like a scale would have. I think it\u2019s very significant that somebody who would have the strength to be not just a great jazz trumpet player- but the top jazz trumpet player of their generation- would be somebody that would terribly influence the music. Because they\u2019ve had to overcome a great deal- they’re probably a lot stronger mentally and emotionally because of the challenge they have been faced with in presenting jazz on a non-idiomatic instrument. That somebody that could overcome that sort of challenge and yet be on par with the saxophone or a piano- and in these cases, even ahead of- is somebody that\u2019s going to change jazz. There\u2019s two great examples- Louis Armstrong and Miles Davis- the most influential jazz musicians, trumpet players. A lot of times, it\u2019s not a piano player. Even though they can do a whole lot more stuff, they haven\u2019t had that impotence that drove them- that kind of denied the means, and get there anywhere; that kind of drive that it takes. Although, you know, we\u2019ve had people like Coltrane, who was very influential\u2026<\/p>\n

(Interview interrupted)<\/p>\n

\tOkay\u2026 (sarcastically referring to Dr. Robert Wilson) That\u2019s just like a U of H downtown professor to interrupt my brilliance\u2026 \uf04a
\n\tSo, just thinking along those lines, John Coltrane was a good example of somebody who totally transcended his instrument and played beyond what saxophone had done before. And he was, in fact, right up there on the list as well as Charlie Parker- two saxophone players who were probably the next two most influential jazz musicians. And then when you get to piano- well, there were great piano players like Fats Waller\u2026 Duke Ellington, let\u2019s not forget, but more for his compositional skills, I think, than for his piano playing. You kind of go down the list of the great jazz players, it takes a while to get to those whose instruments are a little easier to figure it out on. So, I feel good about the choice we both made about playing trumpet, because it\u2019s going to take a lot to achieve what we\u2019re going for on it. But, wow, we\u2019ve got a whole lifetime to do it, so it\u2019ll make it okay. Why, you hear about musicians who go through all the work then they just get burnt out on it and stuff like that\u2026<\/p>\n

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SW:\tHow do you think different jazz giants have affected and influenced modern musicians?<\/p>\n

CM:\tMmmkay, uh\u2026 well, I mean, we\u2019ll start with Louis Armstrong. There wasn\u2019t such a thing as jazz improvisation before Louis Armstrong. He really defined what jazz improvisation was, in specifically in one cadenza- West End Blues, which we had listened to. There are several aspects of Louis\u2019 that are important. Harmonically, he did things\u2026 he played notes that had not been thought of to play- he was boldly trying new things. He played probably more notes; and this relates to kind of another aspect of his influence, and that was on trumpet- he played higher notes on the trumpet than had been played before. Classical composers heard Louis Armstrong\u2019s recordings and said, \u201cOh, you mean we can write that high?\u201d And much to the grin of classical players, the range of the trumpet went up because of Louis Armstrong. And then, just his sheer command of the instrument; strength- very strong player- they talk about recordings where he would have to stand in the next room while the band was around the microphone, and he\u2019d go out in the hall and play. In those days, the recording technology, they\u2019d just have one microphone for everybody- kind of like a big horn and they’d all kind of aim at it, and he’d be in the next room to balance the sound. So, as far as trumpet, he just gave us a whole new concept of what could be done on trumpet. And, you know, people saw, not only what he did, but his innovative style of trying new things on trumpet, and that was influential, because people just keep trying to do new things on their instruments. That was kind of an African influence, actually, this whole idea of doing things individually on your instrument that kind of set you apart, and he totally followed in that tradition. And then, a major innovation, I think, aside from just the instrument, the two major innovations would be this harmonic idea where he was playing more notes in the chord than had been used before, and partly because of his facility on trumpet he was able to get around to do that. And then the other was rhythmic- it kind of gets taken for granted now listening to Louis Armstrong, I think, this rhythm that he has achieved; because so much has gone since that\u2026 but, its hard to believe, when you listen to it, that these sounds, the way he played rhythmically had not happened before. He had a way of manipulating the groove of the music to suit his emotions and create tensions and releases that were not there before. And he was just a master of it, rhythmically- very important. The next really influential musician was a guy named Kenny Clarke, he was a drummer, and he was the guy that made Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie famous- because he started playing on his drums accents in different places, and it was a rhythmic development, and it was later called bebop. But because of what he did rhythmically, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker started adding dissonant notes on the places where he would hit drum beats that weren\u2019t expected. And so we developed a rhythmic, which led to a harmonic, development-<\/p>\n

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because they wanted\u2026 it was such a strange place to hit it that they wanted a note that sounded weird, too. And they got used to using notes that were extensions on the chords, instead of just having 1, 3, 5, 7; you might have 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, with different alterations- flat 9, sharp 9, sharp 11, flat 13, sharp 13, that sort of thing\u2026 I think this often overlooked kind of the rhythmic developments. Miles Davis probably carrying this theme of innovation to its ultimate level\u2026 I can\u2019t imagine anyone ever coming close to what he\u2019s done- nobody\u2026 I mean, I can\u2019t think of anybody known for playing in two styles, let alone four, and mastering them. He played bebop with Charlie Parker, he played cool jazz, he played fusion, and modal jazz. And he did all these, like, just laid it out like \u201cthis is how it\u2019s done\u201d and then would moved on to something else. I think a lot of the influences that players pick up are peripheral- you know, they just get from everybody that ever played jazz; like, oh how you phrase this and that, and which notes are part of the language jazz and all that stuff. But I think the things that really shape music are these qualities like innovation- rhythmic innovation or harmonic innovation. And I think it\u2019s more not exactly those innovations, what technically they did different, but the fact that they are innovative. You talk to modern jazz players, and there is an awareness that new things need to be created. There\u2019s a certain \u201cgo back to tradition\u201d thing that happens occasionally- you know people will take the innovations so far that it needs to settle, it needs to marinate a little bit. So they\u2019ll chill out and maybe just do small things for a while, and kind of let people get used to those new sounds; but then they\u2019ll take the old sounds and then add some of these new touches. I mean, you can hear things now like someone playing in a Dixieland kind of style, but then they\u2019ll put a rap artist to it or something, and have a scratch happening; and just add these new elements of the language gradually that\u2026 you know, at first everyone\u2019s like \u201crap, ooh that\u2019s awful\u201d. But there\u2019s a lot of jazz musicians who, maybe not rap, but maybe some of the scratch things from the disc jockeys and things like that will be added and sound very hip, because it\u2019s part of our awareness now- we know those sounds, and you know, we\u2019re comfortable with them. So it kind of, adds to making something sound contemporary. I think innovation is the biggest influence\u2026 The fact that they did something new, not particularly what they did, because you kind of get that from everyone you listen to in jazz. It\u2019s the fact that they were doing something new.<\/p>\n

SW:\tOver the years, how do you think our American society has been effected by jazz? And in the same light, how do you think events in our society might have influenced music or the music industry?<\/p>\n

CM:\tWell, um\u2026 now that\u2019s a big question. Jazz was actually popular music at one time- and that was the swing era. That was the 1930\u2019s and \u201840s. As seems to be the trend, though, usually the watered down versions of the real art music are what becomes popular. In the case of rock and roll, you know it was not necessarily the black R&B singers that received popularity, but Elvis Presley who was copying what they did. And not necessarily \u201cI’m going to steal this and do this and make it big\u201d, but more like, he started doing those sounds and it was a lot easier for the public to latch onto because he was what they expected in a star. And these black R&B musicians who invented the language, muddy waters and things like that, didn\u2019t really get credit until much later. So in jazz, the equivalent to that is say, <\/p>\n

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Glenn Miller, who wrote that piece that all jazz musicians hate to play- called \u201cIn The Mood\u201d- but yet every wedding guest always knows to request it. I even saw an interview about Glenn Miller with some of his former band members and they were like, \u201cOh yeah, he pulled out \u2018In The Mood\u2019 and we thought it was just crap. We hated it. We couldn\u2019t believe it became so popular.\u201d Kind of a commercialism that happens to music in general that makes it more accessible to the public somehow. And this has to do with the music industry- they see this ability, this trend of watering down serious art and selling\u2026 and there\u2019s where it goes. It\u2019s not so much what musicians want to create that gets heard, which is sad, lamentable, for those of us who like to be creative; but really, it\u2019s determined by what gets pushed and what sells and what people think is cool. <\/p>\n

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SW:\t(Repeats inquiry)<\/p>\n

CM:\tOkay, so how has the American public been affected by jazz? Well, not a great deal by the music itself, I would say. But more by fashionable things that were associated with the music. The dances, of course, in the swing era were kind of like, you know, the charleston and all that with the flappers and all, very trendy and very popular\u2026 And it also, kind of, out of ragtime, came this kind of\u2026 the public saw the music as being bad news. You know, the ragtime- syncopation- was considered practically satanic by the upper class. And a lot of that has to do with where it was accepted. In New Orleans, Sidney Bechet, Jelly Roll Morton, people like that, were playing in the Red Light District, basically- they played for prostitutes and their clients, and that was how they made a living- that was the people who listened to the music. So it had this reputation, and middle class America, upper class America was not interested to being exposed to this sinful music. Another thing was the dancing that was associated with it. Not risqu\u00e9 for now, at all, just kind of cheek to cheek close dancing\u2026 people actually touched each other when they danced, and this was terribly, you know\u2026 This was way before rock and roll, people were way opposed to ragtime first, and then swing bands. But fortunately, the kind of thing that changed that was a couple of dancers- Irene and Vernon Castle. They were in a broadway show, The Sunshine Girl, and they danced the turkey trot- they had all these animal dances, the turkey trot, the fox trot- and all of a sudden it was on broadway and the people who went to the broadway were like, \u201cOh, that\u2019s, that\u2019s not bad.\u201d And then, all of a sudden, it was kind of, at least, socially acceptable to do that. And they kind of made the equivalent of videos about how to properly do it and made it a kind of art form instead of, you know, \u201cyou just kind of get real close and squeeze a little bit\u201d. There was that kind of\u2026 the dancing effected\u2026 It\u2019s kind of a development in kind of the moral character of the country that \u201coh well maybe that\u2019s okay\u201d. And I\u2019ve heard a comparison comparing popular music in America to the English language. Which was, you know, considered kind of course, but yet now, there are more things written in English than there has been <\/p>\n

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in any other language. It\u2019s (the American version of English) less formal, than say, the British version of English, less formal than French; it\u2019s a casual kind of language. And even made more casual by popular music lyrics and things like that. It\u2019s kind of like, music kind of went the way of the English language- American popular music is the same way that it\u2019s brought us to a more casual state. I mean, even think about church music now- that\u2019s a good example of it. Pop music is totally come full circle and is in churches now, and you even hear people saying \u201cit speaks to me more\u201d and \u201cI can get more involved in the worship because I understand the music, it\u2019s my kind of music\u201d- whereas, can you imagine, hoity-toity turn of the century people doing their very conservative versions of hymns, listening to that and just going \u201coh my gosh what has happened to the church\u201d. A very important thing that jazz and popular music has done is brought our races together- particularly African American and white- because popular music came from a combination of European and African music. You know, out of this terrible conflict that we have that creates the civil war, and all that sort of thing, also creates some beautiful music. It\u2019s kind of like, on the other side of the coin, racial tension versus the coming together of the people, creating music that is very, you know\u2026 more\u2026 popular. People are a lot more involved with music than any time in history. It\u2019s kind of a casual kind of music, and it\u2019s an extremely commercialist kind of music- just taking what sounds are associated with, say, a certain look or a certain dance or whatever. But uh\u2026I don\u2019t know, because it has good points and bad points- bringing people together, but also watering down real art. So that\u2019s kind of thinking along the terms of popular music more in general\u2026 But jazz, specifically, I think it\u2019s reached a very small segment of society, but I think for those people it does reach, it is a real American art form; that\u2019s really, I would say, equivalent to the classical European tradition, as far as art\u2019s sake. And I think, I really feel that, in a hundred years, a thousand years, that Louis Armstrong or Miles Davis will be in the same place as we hold people like Bach and Mozart. People back then, weren\u2019t that aware either- Bach was considered kind of a rebellious church organist, they were like \u201cwhy does he do all that weird stuff\u201d; but to me, he\u2019s the greatest composer of all time. My two favorite church musicians- John Coltrane and J.S. Bach. \uf04a But, anyway, is that enough answer on that? I think I can probably go on, but I\u2019ll shut up. <\/p>\n

SW:\tNext question\u2026 just like for the people during WWII, swing represented hope and a reminder of home, and for teens now-a-days music represents a kind of escape, what does jazz mean for you?<\/p>\n

CM:\tUm, I think it\u2019s reality. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s an escape at all- I think it\u2019s dealing with what you know and what you can learn and what you can do, and how you feel, and what has happened to you, and how that\u2019s affected you, what you want to do- I think it\u2019s all those things in sounds, and actually, in the theory of it as well. But, it\u2019s music about reality. I think that a lot of people\u2026 I think the escapism has a lot to do with the drug culture, which is totally a huge part of the jazz scene. But I’m more convinced that the drugs involved with jazz have to do with dealing with that reality and having difficulty accepting the reality that the music offers, and the life of a poor jazz musician who\u2019s being creative and may not be received commercially. That reality is something to escape from; but the music itself is not an escape, it\u2019s reality, head-on. <\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

SW:\tIf you were talking to someone who had never before heard of the genre of music (jazz), how would you describe it to him or her?<\/p>\n

CM:\tWell, I would say that it\u2019s spontaneous, and\u2026 a lot of times associated with a certain swing feel- it\u2019s got kind of an African influence, rhythmic feel to it, that it\u2019s highly syncopated. And an aural tradition, as well. All music is that way, but I think that after a long time we just assume that if we read a piece by Beethoven that we\u2019re playing what he had in mind- that may not be true at all. Jazz that\u2019s written down definitely needs to be heard and understood in the language and the tradition to perform it correctly. If you were describing it to somebody\u2026 well, that\u2019s silly, you\u2019d play it for them. Say, \u201cHere\u2019s what it sounds like\u201d. I think that\u2019s all you can do. <\/p>\n

SW:\tIf you could say anything to the young aspiring musicians of today, what would you say?<\/p>\n

CM:\tWell, don\u2019t take my gigs \uf04a. Uh, well, I think the most important thing you can do is be honest, you know, and don\u2019t get sidetracked ideas and trends associated with jazz- drug culture, uh, anything, addictions. But be focused on learning the reality of the music and what you can create with it- you know, just be honest and just listen to it. If you don\u2019t listen to it, well, then you know, there\u2019s a problem. <\/p>\n

SW:\tWhat was your favorite performance both to do and to hear?<\/p>\n

CM:\tOh, that\u2019s tough. Well, there are definitely times when you\u2019re improvising that you\u2019re just kind of in the zone, you know. And it kind of like has nothing to do with your level, because I\u2019ve been at the zone at many different levels of ability. You kind of know when you remember something; when a performance sticks out, that it was just like, \u201cI\u2019m doing the right thing, this is what I want to do.\u201d And I remember a series of performances that I did when I was probably twenty-two in England. I played with a wind ensemble that performed at this hall in Manchester- a very great concert hall. You know, something about knowing that nobody knew you there freed me up to just go for it entirely. So I had this incredible band concert, and then later some of us from the band played a jazz combo that did the reception afterwards. And this was like the most wonderful music night I think I\u2019ve ever had. And I know I\u2019ve had other great moments, but it really kind of sticks out to me because I just think about it occasionally; I\u2019ll be like, \u201coh that was cool.\u201d I even think about some of the things I played in my jazz solos, and it was just total freedom. There was a lot limiting me as far as what I was able to do, but like the freedom with which I played what I could do was, uh, yeah, it was a blast; it was fun. But then, you know, there\u2019s also the listening, the concerts I\u2019ve listened to that have been great. The first jazz concert I ever went to was kind of an obscure\u2026 well,<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

not really, but as far as hearing your first jazz concert\u2026 it was a baritone saxophone player named Gerry Mulligan who I\u2019ve since come to just love. He was the first person I heard, and I remember thinking about that concert- I guess I was about 17- when he played his soprano saxophone, it reminded me of a harmonica. I remember thinking that- \u201cWow, that\u2019s kind of like a harmonica.\u201d But that\u2019s about all I remember from it. But then I was in New York and went on a\u2026 they have jazz cruises where they have jazz musicians perform for the week, and I was playing in a band called Diva, which was a women\u2019s big band, and we got booked on the same cruise as Jerry Mulligan. I got really into this album he did, called Lonesome Boulevard, about my senior year in college- one of my trumpet teachers turned me onto it, it was a really nice album\u2026 and like, nobody knew about it. He was just kind of forgotten a bit- he did a lot of stuff with Chet Baker, he\u2019s mostly known for that, but man, he\u2019s an incredible musician. So anyway, I had this kind of modern style album of jerry mulligan- a beautiful album- it\u2019s out of print, you can’t get it anymore. And so I saw him on the cruise and wondered \u201cWow, I wonder if he\u2019s going to do anything from that album,\u201d because he\u2019d had other albums come out, and I noticed it was the same band as that album. So I went to see him, and he played everything off of that album- it was great. I\u2019m in the middle of the Caribbean on a ship, in the bottom, listening to his concert, and he\u2019s doing all my favorite songs from this album that I had listened to over and over- that was pretty cool. And I got to meet him and everything. It was pretty neat- I just keep gaining respect for him more and more. I also saw Freddie Hubbard once when he was really on. Never got to see Miles Davis\u2026 Dizzy Gillespie I got to play with, but he was kind of like, out of it and not too friendly, so that was not so great. Clarke Terry is always fun to play with but not, uh\u2026 not\u2026 no I don\u2019t remember the concerts in particular\u2026 I\u2019ll probably think of others afterwards and be mad at it. <\/p>\n

SW:\tOkay\u2026 strange but true, someone once told me they took inspiration from Pablo Picasso\u2019s paintings- do you have an opinion about taking inspirations from other art mediums?<\/p>\n

CM:\tOh, well, yeah, it\u2019s great. I mean, wherever you can find it. I know I like to read the poetry of Roca, and see, I don\u2019t know enough German- you have to know quite a bit of to read that sort of poetry, but Stephen Mitchell has done a series of translations of Roca that are really nice. And then I\u2019ve enjoyed some novels\u2026 in fact there\u2019s one- it kind of associates all this stuff- Somerset Maughan wrote one called, uh\u2026 I don\u2019t remember what it was called, but it was based on the life of Gaugin, only slightly different circumstances. Like, Gaugin died of some kind of social disease or something, meteor or something, and the book, they gave him leprosy instead. Anyway but it was based on Gaugin. Yeah, and I\u2019ve started paying a lot of attention to artwork of kind of innovative painters. I really like El Greco and then, of course, Van Gogh, I\u2019ve gotten to see some of his stuff in person- that\u2019s pretty intense. Not so much of the Monet, I didn\u2019t really get into that too much. But<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

Gaugin, because of his kind of savage approach is kind of similar, in a lot of ways, to some of the jazz players who are more kind of primitive kind of sounding- less refined sounding. Think of things like\u2026 John Coltrane in some aspects\u2026 And I haven\u2019t studied it much- it would be kind of interesting to learn. Because, you know, jazz music, it has kind of an outline to classical music, even though their histories overlap. Comparing the trends in art as opposed to the trends in music, because really, the art that artists create has to do with the time they\u2019re living in. Though a lot people, basically, are in denial about what is really happening so the art doesn\u2019t get accepted until later on, when people are like, \u201cOh yeah, it was kind of like that then.\u201d But mostly they\u2019re like, \u201cOh no, everything\u2019s really fine.\u201d But yeah, music tends to lag behind visual art trends as far as, like, expressionism, impressionism, it kind of happened in music later than in the artists that did it. I think it\u2019s a good thing to study, yeah.<\/p>\n

SW:\tLast question. If you could meet any musician\/s that have ever lived, who would it be, why, and what would you say to them?<\/p>\n

CM:\tHmm\u2026 if I could meet any of them? Well, that\u2019s tough. I think Bach would probably be the guy to meet, and just kind of pick his brain about theory and see how he thought about his counterpoints and stuff like that, because, I mean, really\u2026 I just read this book by Charles Mingus, the great bass player\u2026. not by him but about him\u2026and he\u2019d quoted in interviews saying that, you know, people have been able to copy in improvisation- Bach was a great improviser- people have been able to copy in improvisation somewhat, Beethoven, Mozart, things like that, but nobody really could come close to Bach- he\u2019s just kind of exceptional. But then, I mean, as far as jazz\u2026 I don\u2019t know. Maybe Eric Dolphy, who\u2019s made a name for himself on bass clarinet, but a really interesting player\u2026 or I bet John Coltrane would be cool to talk to- I would say, \u201cHow do you do all that practicing\u2026 how\u2019d you get to do that?\u201d Because me, I\u2019m always wishing I did more all the time. Miles Davis, I think he was kind of not very nice, so he probably wouldn\u2019t be too fun to meet, you know, it\u2019d probably be a big let down. You\u2019d walk in all \u201cwhoa!\u201d and he\u2019d be \u201cgrr\u201d. But you know, if he was civil, he\u2019d be cool to talk to. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Awesome! I just found once-lost transcription of an interview I did with musician Carol Morgan for a project I did a couple years ago- the topic, Jazz History and it’s influence or something along those lines. She is a wealth of knowledge. ————– Sarah M. Williams interviewing Carol Morgan Saturday March 30th, 2002 University of […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-17","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=17"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/17\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=17"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=17"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/curiousrose.com\/petals\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=17"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}